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Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 14:28:47 GMT -5
On Dec. 6th, 1846, there was a battle fought between US forces led by Stephen Kearny against the crack forces of Don Andres Pio Pico in the San Pasqual Valley in present day Escondido, Ca., 30 miles north of San Diego. I'm attaching a fairly lengthy account giving the history of what led up to the battle and the battle. It paints Kearny in a very unfavorable light, saying it was a battle that needn't have taken place and was maybe for his ego more than anything else and of his low regard for the Mexican cavalry. He was so wrong. Around 35 American troops died in this battle. They were saved by Kit Carson, their scout, making his way to San Diego for help. The San Pasqual Valley is a beautiful valley today filled with orange and avocado orchards, among other farming and ranching concerns. The Mule Hill they speak of overlooks Lake Hodges in Escondido. After they gave up their position on Mule Hill, they camped in what today is known as Kit Carson Park, a park where I used to spend a lot of time watching my kids' soccer and baseball games. There is a reenactment of the battle every December. Here's the account. www.militarymuseum.org/SanPasqual.html
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 13:24:17 GMT -5
Bromhead, I think most people who haven't studied the battle think that, like in the movie "They Died with their Boots on," that all of Custer's men were killed at Last Stand Hill. But that was only somewhat about one-third of his entire command. Custer had split his command by sending Benteen off with about 140 men on a scouting mission and to head off any Indians that might be fleeing that way, 140 or so with Reno, who was ordered to attack the south end of the village, and the pack train. I don't have the number off the top of my head, but I think there were somewhast over 300 men, plus a number of Indian scouts, that weren't with Custer, but were holed up on Reno Hill no more than four miles away from where Custer was killed. I'm not sure who or what The Son of the Morning Star is you're talking about. That was what the Indians called Custer. And I think also the Cheyenne chief Dull Knife had that name also. It's also incorrect that only Captl Keough's horse Comanche survived. Many of the 7th's horses survived and were taken by the Indians, including maybe Custer's own horse. There were army horses left on the field after the Indians moved on, but they were all put down by the soldiers except for Comanche because of who he belonged to.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 13:17:30 GMT -5
Nefer, there's another good site you might like. It's a forum called "Against All Odds." It deals primarily with the Little Big Horn and also the Alamo and the Zulu war. It hasn't been terribly active lately because most of the members moved on to the History Channel forum or the Little Big Horn Associates forum. There's three or four of us left who post weely. Here's the site: www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard2/default.asp?Group=4
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 13:12:25 GMT -5
Re: The Battle of Little Bighorn « Reply #12 on Today at 9:16am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lots of great info and photos, Bubbabob! Thanks a lot. I guess the theory holds how people who are intertested in the Alamo are also interested in other 'last stand' historical events Nefer, there is a forum called "Against All Odds" that focuses on the Little Big Horn, but there's also a forum there on The Alamo. It's not terribly active anymore, but there's three of us who post fairly often. Also covers the Zulu war. I think you'd like it: www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard2/default.asp?Group=4
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 22:54:34 GMT -5
Gentlemen, my bad. I referred to Boston Custer as the nephew of George and Tom. Boston was actually the younger brother. They did have a nephew there, Autie, whose marker is also within the fenced area along with his three uncles. Also killed about a mile away was Capt. Calhoun, who was their brother in law, having married their sister, Margaret. I spout off a lot of things here from memory, forgetting things. Happens when you get old.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 22:36:31 GMT -5
Benteen arrived with his men about the same time as Reno and his men made it up the hill. Custer had sent two messages to Benteen, on the famous one carried by a trooper named Martini to come quick. Big village, Bring pacs. But Benteen felt he couldn't follow the order because the pack train was still miles behind them, and you can't come quick with the mules. Many think Benteen is as responsible for the disaster as Custer because he didn't come to Custer's aid. Custer split his command into two wings and sent Companies E&F under Capt. Yates down Medicine Tail Coulee to possibly cross the river. It's unknown whether he wanted Yates to cross the river or if it was a reconnasaince or a feint intended to draw Gall and Crazy Horse from the valley fight. Yates and his men were met by gunfire and repelled from Medicine Tail Coulee. Some feel Custer led the attempted crossing and received his chest wound there. Most don't belieive that. This is MTC,and is where many of the Sioux and Cheyenne made their crossing to attack Custer. The sign shows Custer's men advancing down MTC, and on the bluff to the left, three Crow scouts firing down into the village: Custer and about 40 of his men, including his brother Tom and nephew Boston and, fell and were found at what has become known as Last Stand Hill (LSH). It's enclosed by a fence now. Custer's marker is the black one: In the picture above, about 40 men made a dash for the river near the end of the fight. Don't know if you can make it out, but there is a string of white markers leading from LSH diagonally from the center of the picture to what is known as "Deep Ravine." I'll see if I can find a better picture of the South Skirmish Line, as it is known, which leads from LSH to Deep Ravine. Many people believe Custer fell before these men who fell on the SSL and Deep Ravine. This is a view looking northeast up to LSH along the SSL: One of the biggest mysteries of the LBH is what they call "The mystery of E Troop." After the fight, when Terry arrived and burial parties were sent out, there were 28 bodies found in Deep Ravine. Sometime later when parties were sent to retrieve the bodies for reburial, they couldn't be found and have never been found. Some say they were never there, that the soldiers were mistaken about where the 28 had been found originally. Modern digs have been done by archeologists using modern equipment, and the bodies have not been found. This is Deep Ravine: Where Custer Fell, the monument at Last Stand Hill, taken at 8:55 PM:
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 21:57:37 GMT -5
Custer's intent, I think, was to wait for Terry to arrive from the north and catch the Indians between them. Their presence was discovered when a case of hardtack fell off one of the mules in the pack train. Custer's chief of scouts, Lt. Varnum, was led to the Crow's Nest from which the Indian scouts claimed they could see the village about 12 miles away. Custer made two trips to the Crow's Nest and wasn't able to make out anything. He was told by his scouts to look for what appeared to be worms on the banks of the high ground, which would be the huge pony herd, estimated to be as many as 20,000 horses. The village itself could not be seen because of the broken land, but this is what Custer could see: Custer proceeded towards the Valley of the LBH, and the signs of a huge village became more and more apparent. They came across a "Lone Tepee" inside of which they found a dead warrior, one who was wounded eight days earlier when Crazy Horse led an attack at the battle of the Rosebud on Gen. Crook's 1000 or so men as they were having their morning coffee. The general area of the lone tepee is near the base of the bluff or slightly up the bluff: Maj. Reno was ordered to attack the village in the valley and that he would be supported by the whole outfit. Benteen had been sent on his famous "scout too the left" while Custer continued making his way north looking for a place to ford the LBH River and either attack from the north or capture the noncombatants, forcing the Indians attacking Reno to give up their attack. Reno formed a skirmish line, lost the upperhand, was basically outflanked and driven from the valley into the timber, where he tried to defend, but was driven from their and made a "charge" from the timber, across the LBH River and up the steep banks to a defensible position known as Reno Hill. Here's a picture showing where Reno and his 140 or so men made their crossing and scramble up the steep hills you see. Reno lost about 40 of his men in the valley fight. Sorry for the people in the picture. That's yours truly in the middle stooped over in the purple shirt and baseball hat on backwards: Reno escaped to Reno Hill. There is a depression there where Dr. Porter set up his field hospital. It might not look like it, but this is a fairly small when you consider there were around 250 men and several hundred horses and mules in this area. The men dug rifle pits, which can still be seen today, and held out until Terry relieved them on the 26th, arriving as scheduled. Here's a view from Reno Hill looking down on the valley where the fight took place and Reno Crossing, where they crossed the river. I don't think it shows the river, but the skirmish line was formed about 100 yards in front of the red-roofed building. Chased into the timber and eventually up this hill:
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Vets
Sept 5, 2007 14:03:09 GMT -5
Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 14:03:09 GMT -5
I am considered a Vietnam vet due to my service on aircraft carriers in the Gulf of Tonkin. For many years I had a sense of guilt to call myself a Vietnam vet because I was never in Vietnam itself. But I guess with today's sailors who patrol the waters around Iraq qualifying ast Gulf War vets, I guess I can now say I was a vet. I worked in aircraft maintenance administration for VFP-63 stationed at Miramar Naval Air Station north of San Diego, the Top Gun school. My squadron sent four F-9 Crusaders with a compliment of five pilots and maintenance crew of about 40 men to keep the jets flying. Our pilots flew the F-8, also known as the Mig Killer because the F-8 brought down more Migs than any other aircraft. But our pilots flew unarmed. Instead of the 90mm cannon on either side of the fuselage, we had camera bays. We were a photo recon squadron. Each of our pilots' planes flew with two fighter escorts, also F-8's, but armed to the teeth. I made two WESTPAC cruises during Vietnam, each lasting nine months. We would spend an average of 40 days continuously at sea in the Gulf of Tonkin, Yankee Station in the war zone off the coast of VN, but often within sight of land. After our 40 or so days, we'd usually pull into Subic Bay, Phillipines, for four days to a week of R&R, resupplying, etc. On each of my cruises my squadron lost one pilot, and the other squadrons also lost a pilot or two. Although it didn't seem like war to a 20 year old kid like myself being on a huge warship off the coast, being escorted by a destroyer on either side of our carrier, it was war, as evidenced by some of our pilots never returning.
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D-Day
Sept 5, 2007 13:51:50 GMT -5
Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 13:51:50 GMT -5
I'll tell you guys what: some day before I die, I'm going to Normandy and stand on the top of the bluffs, walk the cemetary and pay homage to what those extraordinary men did. That's my goal. I'd also like to tour the Battle of the Bulge area. And Iwo Jima, although I hear it's very hard to be allowed to get there. But NOrmandy? Some day.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 8, 2007 12:15:42 GMT -5
That's a pretty -- no. Very impressive collection you've got there!
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 5, 2007 13:53:42 GMT -5
Wow! That is some collection. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 9, 2007 21:51:45 GMT -5
Well, first off, who or what I like to read, my favorite authors for fiction are Stuart Woods, Patricia Cornwell and James Patterson. What am I reading now? I am currently reading a book by Elsa Spear. It is called "Bozeman Trail Scrapbook, The books and photos of Elsa Spear." This is a compilation of her writings and photos by family members. Elsa was from an early ranching family in and around the Bighorn Mountains, an ardent outdoorswoman and photographer, writer. You name it. The book is about the history of the Bozeman Trail and the three forts the army built to protect it, especially Ft. Phil Kearney in between present Buffalo and Sheridan, Wy. It is my favorite historical subject that I study, even moreso than the Little Big Horn.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 24, 2007 22:06:25 GMT -5
Several years ago my wife and I were driving around Tennessee heading to Virginia when we were looking for a campground. We stumbled upon the David Crockett State Park in Lawrenceburg, Tn. I'd never heard of it before. We spent the night there and spent part of the next day exploring the area. It got its name because one of Crockett's enterprises in Tennessee was he had set up a store and a grist mill along the river or creek there. It last for awhile, but eventually went belly-up. I wish I could give the years it was there, how soon before he left for Texas. I remember reading it was his wife's money he used to set up his business. Lawrenceburg is a beautiful little town in the Amish country of southern Tennessee. That's one of the things I love most about traveling this country in an RV is all the unique or historic places you run across, places you've maybe never even heard of. This is one great country! Oh, as an aside, this town is also the boyhood homes of none other than Fred Thompson and Gen. Schwartskopf (dp??).
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 6, 2007 9:57:29 GMT -5
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 1:56:24 GMT -5
Davy, great pictures of the old mission. After having wanted to go to Goliad for many years, I finally made it there this spring. Here's a few of my favorite pictures: Fannin and his men were surrounded in this open meadow. My understanding is they underwent some bombardment before a surrender was negotiated. This site at the Battle of Coleta Creek is about 12 miles from the mission they were marched to and basically murdered: The mission: Fannin was executed in this small courtyard in front of this chapel: The men were marched out in three columns and then murdered, over 300 of them. Less than 20 or so escaped. Then they were buried in a mass grave, and later this memorial was built over their grave site:
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 1:58:57 GMT -5
I can't remember now, but wasn't Bowie the one who wanted to destroy the Alamo and anything else the Mexicans could have used? Had he been healthy, would he have given in to Travis? This is an interesting concept.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 1:47:39 GMT -5
Man, that's a tough question. I think if you're looking for "the hero" at the Alamo, it's got to be all of the men who fell there. As someone said, they all knew they were going to die, they all had the chance to escape, but they stayed, buying Houston the time he needed. On the other hand, I think for the entire revolution, I'd have to go with Houston. He had to endure a lot of redicule and thinking of himself as a coward by most of his army, but he had the guts, and I guess the plan, to hold his ground until he found the proper ground to fight Santa Anna.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 1:41:06 GMT -5
I guess this is as good as any to post this. I have met the descendents of three of the key figures in Texas history. My cousin was married to a descendent of Old Ben Milam, who died when taking San Antonio from the Mexicans. My cousin's husband passed away about two years ago. He was from the Waco area, where there are quite a few Milams living. In fact, one of his nephews' name is Ben Milam. From Nederland, Tx. there is an attorney named David Bonham, who is related to the Bonham of the Alamo fame. In his office, instead of the usual college diplomas, his office is filled with memorabilia--don't know if it's all replicas or what--of Texas history. And here in San Diego there is a deputy Public Defender whose name is William Barret Travis. Being a history buff and student, I was thrilled just to have this connection between the past and present.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 9:53:25 GMT -5
Crazyhorse, his pictures are great. I had no idea there was that much at Washsington-on-the-Brazos. I'm sure stopping next trip.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 4, 2007 2:03:10 GMT -5
Neferetus, great pictures! Like many people, I"ve driven I-10 numerous times and have driven right past the exit to Wasington-on-the-Brazos without stopping. Your pictures have sure whetted my appetite to make a stop there on my next trip. Thanks for the pictures.
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