military forces in england (in 1879)

[gambler]

This one is especially for our english friends...

Back in 1879, due to her expanding empire, english army was, for a big part, overseas...

What regiments were left to defend the island from an (hypothetic) invasion ?

[Bromhead24]

Thats a good question, i did a google search and could not find anything.
I can tell you what forces were in South Africa in 1879 though.

[gambler]

Thanks for the effort, Martini. As a writer and wargames amateur, I'm speculating a "victorian england invasion" scenario...

Without beeing a specialist as you and Mo, I'm quite informed of the military forces in south africa during this period (I've several Osprey books on the subject)

[Bromhead24]

Well, i tried again this time i used several different angles of approach via google and ......nothing.
I think Mo or Rebel Al can help in this department especially since they are from the UK and or Wales (the dirty Welshman).
That still is a good question, I can tell you what regiments were in South Africa, Zulu Land, Egypt and Sudan, India and Afganistan. well heck, now is the time to invade, there is nobody left in England. Whoops, i know that "The Black Watch" was in "Home service" in 1879, both batallions. So there was about 2200 troops there.


I will keep looking cause you got my dander up on this subject..


Mike

[gambler]

What is "the balck watch" ? And where was it located

Stuart Reid, from the "alamofilm" forum provides me some infos that may help :

I suspect it would be difficult to find 10,000 regulars within a week, let alone at 24 hours notice. There’s no real reserve system to ‘complicate’ the mobilisation, the problem is that the available units are scattered all over the country and there is no mechanism for militarising the railway – it has to done through persuasion and co-operation and in competition with civilian traffic – again look at the shambles of your own mobilisation in 1870. I would expect that any invaders would be well established ashore before any serious attempt could be made to block their advance, far less counter-attack.

I suggest you try to get the Osprey Warrior ‘British Infantryman in South Africa’ which will give you a good background to the British Army in the 1870s – at home as well as in South Africa.
Regular infantry regiments at this period were referred to by number, eg; 25th Foot (avoid the 24th Foot – EVERYBODY knows they were in South Africa in 1879), unless they were Royal regiments. These had numbers as well but were usually referred to by name, eg: the 1st Foot were the Royal Regiment/Royal Scots and the 7th Foot were the Royal Fusiliers. The only exception was the Rifle Brigade which had no number and which wore very dark green (virtually black) uniforms and black equipment. In theory all infantry except Highlanders (in feathered bonnets), Fusiliers and Guardsmen (in bearskins) would wear dark blue spiked helmets – slightly more elegant than Prussian ones, but in practice nearly all would have worn Glengarry forage caps (similar to your bonnet de police) in action.
As for the volunteers; these fell into two categories. The cavalry were designated as Yeomanry with County titles, which for your purposes means units such as the Surrey Yeomanry and so on. They were normally either light dragoons or hussars (both in dark blue) and would have been deployed as scouts, making use of their local knowledge.
The infantry were normally called Rifle Volunteers and dressed in grey. Again they tended to use local titles and although there were some large (battalion sized) units such as the London Scottish, most were glorified shooting clubs – with a fair number of older men with family commitments - at best capable of acting as francs tireurs – such as you had in the Vosges in 1870-71. Their titles were taken from towns rather than counties.

There was a very good book written in the 1870s by a man named Chesney on the subject in the 1870s – it has been reprinted several times so you may be able to find it. If you can it will provide a very good background as he wrote it as a ‘warning’ in the wake of the war of 1870 and it was quite influential in subsequent British military thinking – including reforms which sorted out the problems outlined above. Can’t remember the details but I’ll try and find them for you

Your thoughts ?

[Bromhead24]

I was wrong about the Black Watch, the 1st batallion (42nd Highlanders) was in Cyprus untill mid 1879 then were shipped off to Gibralter from June 1879 thru November 1881

The 2nd Batallion was in Home service "Barracks" in Hampshire untill 1881.

[gambler]

Condidering Lord Carnavon had resigned in 1878, who was his substitute in 1879 ?
And Lord Derby was he still in charge of the colonies ?

[Bromhead24]

gambler said:

Condidering Lord Carnavon had resigned in 1878, who was his substitute in 1879 ?
And Lord Derby was he still in charge of the colonies ?

Sir Michael Hicks Beach (February 4, 1878 - April 21, 1880)

John Wodehouse, 1st Earl of Kimberley (April 21, 1880 - December 16, 1882)


Edward Henry Stanley, 15th Earl of Derby (December 16, 1882 - June 9, 1885)

Frederick Arthur Stanley (June 24, 1885 - January 28, 1886)

Granville George Leveson-Gower, 2nd Earl Granville (February 6, 1886 - July 20, 1886)

Edward Stanhope (August 3, 1886 - January 14, 1887)

Henry Thurstan Holland, 1st Baron Knutsford (January 14, 1887 - August 11, 1892)

George Robinson, 1st Marquess of Ripon (August 18, 1892 - June 21, 1895)

Joseph Chamberlain (June 29, 1895 - September 16, 1903) (Resigned)

[the gambler]

Wow ! Thanks Martini ! Do you know where I can find a physical description of sir Michael Hicks Beach ?

BTW, I'm also searching documentation on the 37th foot regiment : what was their uniform in 1879 ? what did their depot of Winckester looked like, etc ?

[the gambler one more time]

Another question : did the british army had known other significants defeats the years preceding Isandlwana ? (Afganistan ? Chypre ? India ?)

[Bromhead24]

the said:

Wow ! Thanks Martini ! Do you know where I can find a physical description of sir Michael Hicks Beach ?

BTW, I'm also searching documentation on the 37th foot regiment : what was their uniform in 1879 ? what did their depot of Winckester looked like, etc ?

Sir M H Beach


Officers Uniform circa 1879


Shako Badge (Kings Crown circa 1902)


Colours



Barracks photo (Origional barracks just a modern photo)

[Bromhead24]

the said:

Another question : did the british army had known other significants defeats the years preceding Isandlwana ? (Afganistan ? Chypre ? India ?)

Isandhlwana is by far the worst defeat (from what i read) A modern army is defeated by natives with spears etc;

Isandhlwana, One of the greatest British military defeats - more officers were lost here than at Waterloo.
The defeat resulted from Chelmsford refusing to laager his wagons.
25,000 Zulu warriors in the classic bull & horns formation overrun the British camp leaving 1400 dead.

The Battle of Chillianwallah, January 13th 1849.
The 1st Batt 24th of foot

The last stand a Gandamak January 13th 1842
The first Afghan war .
The 44th (East Essex) was killed to the last man during the British retreat from Kabul to Jellalabad

There are several other major defeats but the ones mentioned are some of the most famous.

[gambler otra vez]

Thank you very much man ! Your help is precious !

A few precisions : the jacket officer was red but what about the common troop (Stuart Reid wasnt' he saying that foot soldiers of that period wore green uniforms ?)

The retreat from Kabul did happen before Isandlwana ?

[Bromhead24]

Commanding officers of the 37th of the period.
Thomas Simson Pratt, K.C.B. Col 30/5/1862 - 3/2/1879


Edmund Haythorne, K.C.B. General 3/2/1879 - 18/10/1888


The 37th was in Home barracks in Winchester England in
1875-81 and then they shipped to Ireland
1880-83

United with the 67th to form the Hampshire Regiment. The 37th to be known as the 1st Battalion The Hampshire Regiment. The 67th the 2nd Battalion

January seemed to be a bad month for the British soldier. The retreat from Kabul was in January 1842.

I'll have an answer on the uniform directly.

mike


Other ranks Shako plate, Notice the QVC (Queen Victoria Crown)


Officers Blue cloth home service helmet plate also QVC

[a grateful gambler]

One more time, thanks for the infos ; I'll make a good use of them :-)

[Bromhead24]

a said:

One more time, thanks for the infos ; I'll make a good use of them :-)

I should have the info on the OR's (Other Ranks)home and foreign service uniforms soon. I emailed the QM at the 37th barracks directly..


Mike

[gamblerissimo]

What was at the time (1879) the best mitlitary school of the country ( kinf od english West Point)

[Bromhead24]

gamblerissimo said:

What was at the time (1879) the best mitlitary school of the country ( kinf od english West Point)

The
Royal Military Academy, Woolwich



The Royal Military Academy, an elegant and commodious structure, situate at the south-east corner of Woolwich Common, affords accommodation to about one hundred and thirty young gentlemen, the sons of military men, and the more respectable classes, who are here instructed in mathematics, land-surveying, with mapping, fortification, engineering, the use of the musket and sword exercise, and field-pieces; and for whose use twelve brass cannon, three-pounders, are placed in front of the building, practising with which they acquire a knowledge of their application in the field of battle. This department is under the direction of a lieutenant-general, an instructer, a professor of mathematics, and a professor of fortification; in addition to which there are French, German, and drawing masters.



This was the older and more senior of the two establishments from which the present RMAS was formed. It was set up in 1741, near the Royal Artillery Depot at Woolwich, with the aim of producing, in the words of its first charter, "good officers of Artillery and perfect Engineers". The Corps of Royal Engineers, originally an all-officer corps, was not formally separated from the Royal Regiment of Artillery until 1787. Both remained under the control of the Board of Ordnance until 1856, and were collectively referred to as the Ordnance Corps. The RMA provided the high level of scientific education required by these two corps, while at the same time ensuring that their officers had the same level of military training as those serving in the Line.

Two expressions from the old RMA passed into the language. "Talking Shop", meaning "to discuss subjects not understood by others", derives from the RMA being commonly known as "The Shop", as its first building was a converted workshop in Woolwich Arsenal. "Snooker", the table-top game, was invented by a former cadet of the RMA, where the members of the junior intake were known as "snookers", from a corruption of "les neux" (the new guys).



Students at the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich and the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, both of which closed on the outbreak of war in September 1939, were known as gentlemen cadets. Unlike modern Officer Cadets, who are technically private soldiers and are paid and clothed as such by the MOD, gentlemen cadets were not subject to military law. Their parents paid tuition and boarding fees, in the same way as at a public school or university, and also paid for uniforms (of the same pattern as worn by subaltern officers, but without badges of rank), books, and mathematical instruments. Fees were reduced for the sons of serving or former officers, and there were also a number of cadetships (comparable to scholarships). Admission was by competitive written examination in a variety of academic subjects, and candidates passed in, in order of merit, according to the number of marks they achieved. There were no practical tests of aptitude for leadership such as were first introduced during the Second World War and which continue to form the basis of the present-day Regular Commissions Board. This had the effect of confining entry to either the RMA and or the RMC to public schoolboys, often from families with a military connection.



Artillery and engineer officers could purchase neither first commissions nor subsequent promotion. All had to pass out from the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, and then advanced by seniority. The Royal Military Academy, which finished up at Sandhurst, was established in 1801, but potential officers were not obliged to attend it and there was no guarantee that those who did would receive free commissions.

The purchase system had advantages, enabling competent young officers to gain higher rank more quickly than would be the case today, and helping ensure the army’s loyalty because its officers were men with ‘a stake in the country’. And even those officers who did not attend formal training at Sandhurst were prepared by their regiments, being obliged to train with the recruits until they were thoroughly proficient in individual drill and understood how to drill a company.

If purchase fitted comfortably into the fabric of Georgian England, with its emphasis on place and patronage, it came under increasing attack in the 19th Century and vanished in Cardwell’s reforms. These obliged officers, with few exceptions, to attend Woolwich or Sandhurst, which merged after World War Two to form the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. However, the end of purchase did not open an officer’s career to all, for until World War One it was difficult for an officer to survive without private means.

The fact that most officers came from a relatively narrow social spectrum did not matter much in peacetime, but when the army expended for World War One many surviving pre-war regulars received promotion beyond their normal expectation. Britain’s first citizen army was commanded, at its higher levels, by officers from the old army.



In the south-west part of Woolwich Common, to the left of the road leading to Shooter's Hill and Eltham, is the Royal Military Academy, established by George II. "for instructing persons belonging to the military portion of the ordnance in the several branches of mathematics, fortification, etc., proper to qualifying them for the service of artillery and the office of engineer." The Academy, as a matter of fact, was founded in 1719, but it hung fire until 1745, and in 1745 it was transferred from within the Arsenal to the present site. Sir J. Wyatt designed the building, which consists of a central quadrangle (the original has been destroyed by fire) with wings. Among the cadets educated here was the Prince Imperial, to whose memory his fellow-students have erected a bronze statue.

--1897

[game boy]

Once again, thank you ! Your knowledge is highly appreciated !

[Bromhead24]

gambler said:

Thank you very much man ! Your help is precious !

A few precisions : the jacket officer was red but what about the common troop (Stuart Reid wasnt' he saying that foot soldiers of that period wore green uniforms ?)

The retreat from Kabul did happen before Isandlwana ?

Wow! i'm sorry i didn't see your post, To answer your questions
The infantry officers tunic in general with a few exceptions from various regiments ranging back to the early 1700's were "Scarlet" red while the or's (other ranks) wore brick red tunics.
These changed about the time the war of 1812 got started.

From then on both officers and enlisted ranks wore scarlet tunics but the officers were in general made of barathea (sp?) wool which is very fine and silk like while the enlisted ranks wore "serge" wool a fine but thicker wool. Remember most officers had their uniforms custom made.

The retreat from Kabul happened in the 1840's while Isandhlwana was in 1879

Does that help?