Ashes and bones

[bubbabod]

A friend of mine posted the following quote on another Alamo forum:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The remains of those who died in the Alamo were burned by order of General Santa Anna, and the few fragments I ordered deposited in an urn. I ordered a sepulcher opened in San Antonio's cathedral next to the alter, that is, in front of the the railings but very near the steps."


I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen this in one of your books, and if so, who made the statement, and is the story true?
Thanks.

[bubbabod]

Okay, while looking in one of my Alamo books, I think I've answered my own question. In the Osprey Publishing's "The Alamo 1836, Santa Anna's Texas Campaign, on page 52 there is a picture of a cryuptl, looks like marble maybe that is inscribed, "Here lie the remains of Travis, Crockett and Bowie."
The caption for the picture says:

"Alamo courier Juan Seguin located the site of the funeral pyres and claimed to have collected the remains of the defenders in an urn that he buried in the corner of the San Fernando church.
"During the 1936 restoration of the church, workers uncovered charred bones and bits of cloth. Subsequently, churc officials placed them in this crypt.
"Nevertheless, many scholars doubt that the remains are actually
those of the Alamo's defenders."

But I guess my question remains: does anyone know if this story is true? Seems plausible. NOt that they were truly the bones of the three mentioned, but seems plausible they are the bones of defenders if, in fact, Seguin collected some remains and did whast he said he did.

[seguin]

Seguin made a statement about him burying the remains in the church near the steps. It´s in his memoirs. I´m quite sure it´s his statement you quote. He also conducted a memorial service for them. You can find the speech on the net...

Exactly! Seguin did what he said he did! That´s considered a fact. Whether it´s the same remains that were later discovered and whether Crockett etc. are a part of the remains are disputed.

[bubbabod]

There was talk on another thread here about just where the pyre was where the bodies were burned. I had always thought it was at the location of the cenotaph. Here's a quote from a web site I found: "Some believe that the monument is built where many of the Alamo defenders were put to death after the fall. Others believe the corpses of the dead defenders were piled here and unceremoniously burned.


Now, the more I surf around here, I came upon someone's web site with numerous Alamo-related pictures, which I'll post. Here is the marker on Commerce Street:

good-times.webshots.com/photo/2483218450066237676yjshPM


Here is the website where the picture came from. It's got lot of good pictures:
good-times.webshots.com/album/556365479xnHpqZ?start=0


My thanks to whoever's web site this it.

[Greg C.]

I thought they also had thrown some bodies in the San Antonio river or was this just their own casualties?

[bubbabod]

I thought they also had thrown some bodies in the San Antonio river or was this just their own casualties?


Crazyhorse,
That's a heck of a way to treat your own dead, isn't it? Well, Santa Anna wasn't known for having a soft heart.

[neferetus]

Regarding the crypt in the San Fernando Cathedral that purportedly holds remains of Alamo defenders: as there were military brass buttons found amongst the remains, it throws suspicion on them as actually being Texian remains. (Texian bodies were stripped of all clothing before they were put on the funeral pyres.)

[Cole_blooded]

You ask 10 different people the same question and you`ll get 10 different answers at times! Holds true in many subjects like History and such! How would there be any ashes left considering the weather(wind/rain etc),people,animals and such? How long exactly from March.6,1836 to whenever Seguin did retrieved them? Take the time and the elements and try to figure that one out!

TED COLE....aka....Cole_blooded

[neferetus]

Seems there would've been more bone fragments, than ashes. The funeral pyres did not exactly reduce the Texian remains to ash and bone. There were likely unconsumed chunks of flesh, arms, legs, skulls, torsos, etc., that the wolves and coyotes had a feast upon. So, while the bones may've been scattered over a wide area, Seguin, in turn, may've concentrated his gathering efforts to one of the larger concentration of remains. Had dead Mexican soldiers in fact been thrown in the river for disposal, wolves could have possibly dragged out some of the corpses to dry land, uniform fragments, brass buttons and all. It may sound like a kind of a stretch, but Seguin may've ended up gathering remains from both Texian and Mexican dead.

[bubbabod]

This kind of reminds me of whether it's really Custer's remains that are buried at West Point. The remains at the Little Big Horn were so hastily buried and then dug up for reburial, they're not even sure it was Custer's remains.

[Greg C.]

bubbabod said:

This kind of reminds me of whether it's really Custer's remains that are buried at West Point. The remains at the Little Big Horn were so hastily buried and then dug up for reburial, they're not even sure it was Custer's remains.

There must be a monument also, right?

[alamojohnuk]

This is a subject of some morbid fascination for myself I have to admit,
there is a very good piece on the subject on page 539 of "The Alamo Reader" taken from an interview by Charles Merritt Barnes of the San Antonio Express in 1911 in which he describes in great detail the exact location of the Pyres as pointed out to him by three eyewitnesses (still living at that time) who claimed to have actually seen the bodies being burned and before the remains had been disturbed or scattered.

The accounts refer to the individuals as Enrique Esparza, Pablo Diaz, and Juan Antonio Chavez, with the latter along with a Mr August Biesenbach actually taking the interviewer to a place called Odd Fellows Rest, on Powder Hill road, where he claimed some of the remains were given final burial, now placed between two tombs in the cemetery which had been erected many years later and which bore no relation to the Alamo itself whatsoever.

The whole piece is only about a page and a half long but makes fascinating reading about the possible final resting place of at least some of the remains taken from the pyres.

[neferetus]

Here's something I posted on the subject over on Alamo Sentry:


Has anyone been to the Odd Fellows Cemetery, just east of the Alamo, on the corner of Paso Hondo & Pine? The cemetery holds the remains of many prominent Texans, including Captain Samuel Walker, designer of the Walker-Colt pistol. Well, near his grave rest what may be the remains of some of the Alamo heroes. I was first clued to the possibility back in the early 1980's by fellow Alamo buff Craig Covner. Whether the story is true, or not, it certainly gives food for thought.


Here is a photo of the plaque in the Odd fellow's Cemetery.

[neferetus]

Here are Craig Covner's photos of the Walker and Gillespie monuments in the Odd Fellows Cemetery.

[neferetus]

[neferetus]

In his memoirs however, Juan Seguin says that he collected the remains of the Alamo heroes and buried them beneath the altar rail of the San Fernando church.
Says Dr. Bruce Winders, curator of the Alamo, "On February 25, 1837, almost a year to the day after the siege began, Col. Seguín led a military procession that gathered the ashes of the men of the Alamo and placed them in a small coffin. The procession then moved to San Fernando Church, where a memorial service was held to honor the fallen Alamo heroes. Afterward, according to Seguín, the coffin was returned to one of the sites of the funeral pyres and buried with full military honors. Speculation exists, however, that remains later found inside San Fernando were actually those of the Alamo defenders. But based on Seguín’s statement, most historians believe that the ashes were buried as he described and have since been lost through the passage of the years." So Juan Segiun's faulty memory as an old man has caused many to rever the remains on display in a small crypt inside the San Fernando Cathedral to be those of the Alamo heroes. Well, they're somebody's bones, anyway.

FOOTNOTE: When I first visited the San Fernando Cathedral in 1973, the crypt was on display in a little side altar inside the sacristy. It has since been moved out into the vestibule of the cathedral to perhaps prevent curious tourists from interrupting church services.

[neferetus]

A little more info from the San Fernando Cathedral webpage.



In the back of the cathedral today there is a sarcophagus or marble coffin on which is inscribed a notice that the remains of the defenders of the Alamo are buried there. Colonel Juan Seguin, who took control of San Antonio after Texas won independence, was purported to have buried the remains under the sanctuary railing of the old church. In 1936, during renovation work, a box of charred bones, nails, and shreds of uniforms was unearthed at that spot. Historians have argued since then about the validity of the claim, but the marble coffin with the remains has been visited by thousands of people since that time.

[neferetus]

[neferetus]

"Columbia Telegraph and Texas Register April 4, 1837"

Compañeros de armas: Estos restos que hemos tenido el honor de conducir en nuestros hombros son los de los valientes héroes que murieron en el Alamo. Sí mis amigos, ellos prefirieron morir mil veces a servir el yugo del tirano. Que ejemplo tan brillante, digno de anotarse en las páginas de la historia. El genio de la libertad parece estar viendo en su elevado trono de donde con semblante halagueño nos señala diciendo: "Ahí tenéis a vuestros hermanos, Travis, Bowie, Crockett y otros varios a quienes su valor coloca en el número de mis héroes.---Yo os pido a que poniendo por testigo a los venerables restos de nuestros dignos compañeros digamos al mundo entero. Texas será libre, independiente o pereceremos con gloria en los combates.

[Attributed to Juan Seguín; 25 February 1837, at the burial of the ashes of the defenders of the Alamo.]

[neferetus]

Roughly translated:

"Companions in arms: These remains that we have had the honor of carrying upon our shoulders are the most valiant heroes who died at the Alamo. Yes, my friends, they preferred to die a thousand times rather than serve under the yoke of the tyrant. What a brilliant example, worthy of being noted in the pages of history! The genius of liberty seems to be looking down from its high throne; with a look of praise it points it out to us, saying, 'Here you have your brothers, Travis, Bowie, Crockett, and various others whose valor places them in the multitude of heroes.---I ask, with the venerable remains of our worthy companions bearing witness, that we tell the whole world: Texas will be free, independent, or we shall perish with honor in battle."